Tumblr, TikTok, Dead Memes, and ‘Me’: Finding Yourself in the Niche-fied Internet
/Sulafa Zidani in conversation with Amanda Brennan
Recently, while I was making my way through Kaitlyn Tiffany’s wonderful book Everything I Need I Get from You: How Fangirls Created the Internet as We Know It (2022), I came across the title “meme librarian” describing Amanda Brennan, and I knew I had to chat with her!
Amanda’s decade-long career as an internet librarian spans across different platforms and materials ranging from memes to trends at large. I spoke to her to learn about how she understands and struggles with internet culture. In our interview, Amanda highlights the internet as a place for creative niches and fandoms where people can explore and make sense of their identity, with Tumblr being the quintessential place for that type of engagement. We also discuss the difference between “memes” and “trends” in Amanda’s work, how she organizes and categorizes internet culture to forecast trends, and whether trends ever really die.
Since we live in an era where the internet is “nichefied” – dominated by platforms that try to monopolize audiences with increasingly narrow parameters my conversation with Amanda has left me thinking about a loss of agency in the ways we now use the internet. I identified a difference between the experience of exploring internet niches that we both seemed nostalgic for in the “old internet” versus the algorithmically personalized corners we find ourselves on while using TikTok or other platforms today. Amanda described exploring websites, creating fan art, and learning new perspectives as key parts of identity formation online. Today this practice of exploration is exemplified through TikTok, where a user finds themselves in a “corner” determined by the algorithm that is difficult to move away from. This can make the experience of identity exploration more challenging, or sadly, less self-directed.
Whether we are working at the intersection of technology and popular culture, researching it, or roaming the internet to try to figure out our own identity, Amanda reminds us of the importance of being aware of our positionality that determines the lenses through which we interact with the internet.
So, I get the impression that you like the internet. Can you tell me what you like about it?
I've been doing this for so long that things I like have changed. It’s a lot more nuanced now, where some of the things I like are double-edged. For example, I like the ability for people to connect based on the things that are parts of their identity that they may not always be able to find people in their physical space to share those things with. Which, going back to the double-edged sword, sometimes people connect over things that are… not great.
I think the hard bit is that, for the most part, the internet allows people to explore their identity and vulnerability in new and novel ways that continue to evolve and just exploring identity and exploring what it means to be the self.
Is there a particular way that you have gone through this process? Or, are there specific communities online that you think helped in the process of exploring identity?
Oh, yeah. For sure! I started my Internet journey like, in the walled gardens of AOL chat rooms and I was in fandom from the beginning, when I was 12 years old and obsessed with Hanson. This may seem embarrassing now, it’s messy. But, realizing that I could find a space of people who think similarly but would challenge me to think differently at the same time. When you’re in a fandom, there is this one thing that you all like, but you all bring different lenses to it. This way, you can see how different people approach that same thing. It’s like this crystal that I have at my desk at home that looks completely different each way you hold it. If you hold it one way, you’ll see rainbows, and if you hold it a different way, you can see a pattern of squares in it. I love being able to take a thing and think “what are the lenses that I’m bringing into this?” But also, if I’m talking to a coworker, the lenses they bring into it allow me to see it differently and better understand it as a whole.
I love that about fandom. It’s a place where people connect over things they know and love, but then it also becomes a space to learn new things, to push your bounds, and maybe do some very creative stuff together as well.
Yeah, and it’s not always like that. But, transformative fandom specifically does that. I think that’s why I’m so drawn to Tumblr. The types of fans that are drawn to Tumblr where you can be creative and you can question ‘the canon’ and really dig into the reasons of why you are participating in this thing. I love that. I love overanalyzing.
What are your favorite platforms, or the platforms that you use everyday? And, I know these two do not necessarily overlap and are not always the same thing.
They are not! Yeah, Tumblr is one of my favorite platforms, but I don't use it everyday, which is a perfect example of that because I definitely go through cycles where I want to be in it, or when I pick up a new fandom. For example, I just got into the Locked Tomb series. So, I’ve been obsessed with looking at Tumblr series and fanart and explorations of those characters, but that happens when I feel like I have all the time in the world and I just want to focus on the things that I love.
The platforms I use everyday are in a flux right now. It used to be Twitter, but, with everything going on [referring to the changes ensued after Elon Musk purchased the platform] I’ve been using Twitter less and less. I feel like I don’t know where my internet home is right now. I use Instagram but mostly just for messaging and inspiration. I use it everyday but I don’t love it.
I do not use TikTok, although I think I need to for my job and for what I do. But, I have a lot of moral complications with it because TikTok wants to put you in an algorithmic niche to better serve ads against you. What happens is you’re being taught that an algorithm is seeing you, and you’re like “Oh, I love being on the side of TikTok!” But I don't know if I want an algorithm to try to put me in a box. The reason I like Tumblr is because there is that magic serendipity where you get what you get when you log in. To be really cliché about it, it is like going to a library and walking through the stacks, as opposed to going to Amazon and looking at your recommendation list and consuming what an algorithm thinks you are. From working in internet culture for so long, I have a lot of strong opinions about algorithms and I try to be cautious of where I’m letting algorithms consume me.
My sense is that this is becoming increasingly difficult with the platforms that are popular right now, right? At the same time, as someone who researches the internet, TikTok feels like a must. It’s not that I don’t enjoy it, I do. But I feel like I have to be on it to know what is going on there. Then, of course, I end up knowing only about trends that are in my “algorithmic corner” that maybe other people don’t know about or aren’t exposed to at all. This limits my ability to use TikTok trends as a means of connecting with friends or students because they’re not in the same corners of it.
I explicitly use TikTok on burners. When I think of using the internet as myself versus using the internet as my work persona or work concept, I’ve got several burner accounts depending on what corner of TikTok I’m trying to be in. The other day I even realized some people have been sending me messages on TikTok and I will just never see those. When most people think about TikTok, they’re usually thinking “this app knows me so well!” and, going back to what I said earlier about identity and the self, this makes me ask: how much of the self is chosen and how much of the self is assumed by an algorithm at this point and at what point does it become a self-fullfilling prophecy that, for example, all bisexuals love Phoebe Bridgers or something like that.
“My Spotify Wrapped Outed Me” - Video by @jakeblennings on TikTok
A lot of the work I do is also based around archetypes and stereotypes and how we lean into more comforting generalizations to find our identity. I think there’s something to be said about how in the last five to seven years people increasingly want to be seen and quantified. An example of this is the rise of astrology memes. You want to be put into a bucket where you can always have something that you can look at and say “Yes! I don’t know how, but this signs as sandwiches meme is right, I am a Taurus, and I identify with the peanut butter and jelly sandwich.” It’s such a stretch of the brain. But I think over the last decade or so we’ve been trained to look for a group of things and find our archetype within them.
the signs as sandiwches image by @thezodiacstea on Instagram
I feel like, on one hand, people have started trusting the algorithm so much now, so if TikTok feeds us videos about ADHD, we think we must also have ADHD, and we forget that the algorithm is not a doctor. But people believe it and trust it so much, so when it puts them in that corner they begin to question ourselves. On the other hand, I think even when the algorithm messes up, people find it funny and almost endearing. So, if someone finds themselves on some side of TikTok that they did not expect to be on, then they’re like “oh that’s so funny LOL.” rather than questioning it and worrying about what it looks like for other people and all the echo chambers and misinformation that it’s helping spread.
People feel honored to be put somewhere, like “wow I’m in Phoebe Bridgers’s bisexual internet? You must think I’m so cool!” There is this trust in the algorithm but the algorithm was built mostly by a bunch of dudes who don’t understand fandoms and don’t understand communities in the same way that a teenage girl would. That’s something that’s always on my mind: that people who built the algorithms built them in their own lenses. We each bring our own lenses to the table, and that’s not a moral failing, it’s just who you are. So, what does it mean when a bunch of Gen Z kids are defining who they are based on some algorithm that a 40 year old man built and doesn’t maintain like a garden. They just build it and let it be.
Yeah, that assumption that algorithms are a neutral code language, rather than a specific way of seeing things and a way of building things. As someone who works in that space, do you see this changing at all? Or do we still have a long way to go?
I feel like Gen Z has a really interesting perspective on algorithms, that they see it a little bit as a necessary evil. But we are at a weird place right now where millennials are not quite in the decision making process of all this stuff yet, and it’s still run by the generation above. When it comes to change, I think it’s a question of: will capitalism win? Or will search for identity win? Because, at the end of the day, the algorithm serves capitalism, it’s not for people. It’s made to serve ads better and as Gen Z is so hyper-aware of how they’re being advertised to constantly, I think there’s potential there to change that, but we are a ways off.
Going back to a happier place, I get the sense that Tumblr represents the old internet, and I wanted to ask you: do we over romanticize the old internet? Or are there things about it that we should try to carry over or bring back and maintain?
There are three or four things that come to mind. The first one that sparked in my brain is: not being online all the time is important for everyone, and especially important for people who are chronically online, to remind themselves that the whole world is not on Twitter. I say this as someone who is chronically online and needs to be reminded of that a lot. As Twitter has been burning down, I am realizing that there are people in this world who don’t care at all or don’t know that this is happening, and they are living happy lives. That’s my own journey of finding what part of my life is IRL and what part of my life is online, and what the venn diagram of where they cross each other.
I also really miss when it was just websites because I could go to a website. Now, I have to download an app and do about six steps and sign up for the loyalty program and buy an in-app purchase. I miss the freedom of someone’s shitty Geocities page about how much they love their cat and the ability to not have to be on every app. I follow this witch shop based in Philadelphia called The 8th House, and I love everything she makes. I think she’s really cool and smart. She always makes these reels about how running social media content to promote her business is also a job. That’s how she can get new customers. But I met her at the Trenton Punk Rock Flea Market in Jersey, and had a great interaction with her and I was like “You know what? I am going to stan you forever!” This makes me think about my partner, who does art as well, and has to put up with all of the actions in social media in order to get their art out there. It makes me think “How did people do this before apps?” There had to have been a way because we have a history of art. I think Patreon is one great way to find art and support artists and them. I do a lot of Patreons as a way to say “You don’t have to be on every app. I see you, I like what you make, and I’m going to support you.”
Also: Serendipity. The ability to just look at something. I love going to museums. I recently went to see Nick Cave–the artist, not the singer–at the Guggenheim, and I didn’t look at any information online, I just went. I remember walking into the room and having this experience where I was taking it all in and feeling like “woah!” It felt very special in a way that I hadn’t felt in a while. I find art online constantly. I’m always looking for art inspo and tattoo art or the silly four-panel comics. But this is the type of experience that I can’t stop thinking about.
There was that element of discovery and exploration. Now, we have so many steps before. Even if I want to do something like watch a movie, I will probably look up a list of the most popular movies from this year, then watch some of their trailers, and at that point, I might be too tired to even watch the movie. But, thinking back to maybe 10-15 years ago, I would watch any movie just because a friend told me I have to watch it. Then I’m on this ride, and who knows what’s going to happen! There used to be an element of simultaneously having the option to be offline, but also when we were online, we had a chance to be completely enmeshed in whatever we were doing rather than being on 10+ apps simultaneously with the phone buzzing next to us and the email tab constantly open.
Oh, yeah. I have no attention span anymore. And it’s something I’m working on. Whenever I have to sit and write a document, I need to put everything on Do Not Disturb and try not to open Twitter in another window.
Diving a little deeper into your work, I saw that you are doing some work around trends at XX Artists. I want to hear more about that. Is there a particular way that you define a trend? Do you predict trends?
I would define a trend as a concept plus a constraint. That is the highest level kind of approach to it. But I also feel like the word “trend” has lost its meaning now, which is a little silly because it is my specialty. But, the way that Tiktok works has changed the approach to trends, specifically audio trends. When you have to do this specific audio with this specific lip sync or this specific dance, those are memes, not necessarily trends. When I talk about trends, about concept plus constraint, that allows for the ability to think about things like how we celebrate celebrity birthdays. I’m thinking here about KPop fandom and all of the goings on that go into an idol’s birthday. I think of trends with which we celebrate different holidays like, Mariah Carey defrosting on November first. That is a specific trend. The ways that very colorful tinsel trees are happening right now because people are desperate to find joy, to reinvent right now.
Part of the reason I wanted to be at an agency rather than a platform is because I wanted to be able to take in all the input from across the internet. I wanted to be able to see how people are approaching something on one platform versus another and a third one, and what ties all these things together. I work a lot with the idea of macro trends. We identify for example, that XYZ is happening on these platforms, but the underlying meaning behind it all is this little nugget of something. I work with a really great team across the organization and I like to coach everyone to approach the internet with the idea that we all have our own personal internet, and how we can help each other understand the larger concepts at play in internet culture by sharing the things that we are seeing. This is because I also believe monoculture is over. There are things that will tap into a whole different bunch of cultures but I think you and I can exist on the internet in very different worlds and have very small overlap. We have a lot of people in their early twenties who work at the agency so I coach them on identifying internet trends to understand how to make the connections between what’s happening in different places and stretch their mind a little bit, to get them thinking “why do I want to share this thing?” I think back to last year when everyone was tweeting series of red flags with a caption like “when he lives in his parents’ basement.” I think of questions like “why is everyone using this time now to talk about this? Why does everyone want to talk about a red flag? And why are some of them so universal?” There’s no definitive answer for any of it. It is a thought exercise in what drives people to share and what makes certain concepts stand out? What makes something catch on? And what is the emotional drive behind why?
I am interested in hearing more from you about the difference you identify between a meme and a trend. Many scholars who research memes identify an urge or invitation to participate in sharing memes or creating your own iteration as part of what a meme is. From what I’m hearing, you’re seeing a difference between meme culture (like TikTok dances that when people see everyone doing one dance they feel like they have to do this dance now), versus a trend that touches on a social or cultural moment that resonates with people. How do we better differentiate between a meme and a trend?
When I think about macro trends, an example that comes to mind is the desire to put yourself into an aesthetic. That is a macro trend. It is trying to niche-ify yourself so much because that's like what all the businesses are doing and also like a way to find identity. Then the trends that pop up from that are like ‘cottagecore’ and ‘dark academia’ or all the ‘-cores’ we could say. Memes to me are more format-oriented. I consider the dance a meme because people would iterate on it. For example, the hot meme right now is the dance Wednesday does in an episode of the Netflix show and there are iterations of people doing it on their own, some people who are not goth are doing it. People have ways of making it their own personal expression. The macro trend that that leads up to is that people like doing whatever dance is the hot dance right now because it’s a low lift. If I see a dance and it’s a little weird, it’s still simple overall and you can join in very easily. It’s also difficult to siphon off my personal understanding from the words I have to use for my job. I would call that a meme, my work would call that a trend.
image by 🥀 𝐦𝐞𝐢𝐠𝐚 🥀 from instagram
I would also add that a word may start a little more niche, as it gains popularity it goes to the most common denominator. A meme, at the lowest common denominator, is a word with pictures on it, and some people have a hard time expanding out the idea past that. Another example is the word ‘Emo.’ Everyone has a different interpretation of that word depending on their age and how into weird music culture they are. To me, Emo means a very specific group of bands. To the average person, if you say Emo, it might mean My Chemical Romance and Fall Out Boy, but I wouldn’t consider those Emo. I would be thinking of bands like Rites of Spring and Penfold and all these bands no one has heard of because I’m in that niche bucket.
I want to talk more to you about how to organize memes so let me ask you this: What does a meme librarian do? What does your day to day job look like?
In my past job it was a lot more tactile. But in my role now, I read a lot of newsletters because, again, everyone has their own perspective and there are people whose perspectives I really trust at seeing what they’re seeing through the internet and how they’re interpreting it. Like Ryan Broderick of Garbage Day, Kelsey Weekman who’s at Buzzfeed, Kate Lindsay and Nick Catucci’s Embedded, Casey Lewis’ After School, Dirt, and many other newsletters. I also check people’s Twitter accounts, I have a list of people that I love to follow. I like to see what people are taking in and kind of be a sponge. I will look at the internet and see what connections people are making today, and where I can make the connections on top of that. I have a big macro-trend document where I organize my thoughts and I work with incredible people everyday who are sharing information and thoughts. It’s really all about trying to make connections. It’s less archiving than my old job was. I don’t think it’s necessary for every business or agency to have their own meme archive, unless they want to think about the memes directly about their brand or business. Know Your Meme is very good at what they do and they serve a specific purpose. What I really like to do is get people to look at what is popping up and think about what ties them together and find out what the thing that’s up and coming so we can find out what is going to be the next thing. How can we take these smaller conversations and know what it’s like to be in this community while also being ahead of the curve so we can impress the audience with knowledge. One of my not-official OKRs is someone responding to the account with the social media manager “Are you okay?” Showing up as a brand and getting an audience reaction that is like “Woah! This is my internet thing! How do you know about that, brand?!” That is a win to me. Some brands are better than others at this, and it also has a lot to do with the level of trust that is given to the social media manager. Not everything is well planned, and sometimes you need to jump in on a dumb thing on the internet. It might not drive clicks to your website but it shows that you are in community with your audience and speak their language. That is not a measurable metric per se. But it is important to show up and let people know that you know what they’re talking about, and that as a brand, I am not here to dominate the conversation. Rather, I am here to get you to connect with other people, and have the audience feel like they’re part of something.
Yeah, that they’re in on the joke, at least.
Yes, and I think a lot about how in the heyday of Doctor Who, some people would post on Tumblr saying “I’m thinking of watching Doctor Who. What episode should I start with?” And the Doctor Who Tumblr, rather than answering that person themselves, would reblog the post saying something like “We see that this person likes X, Y, and Z. If you also like X, Y, and Z, what episode would you recommend for this person to watch?” and facilitating the fandom without dominating it or deciding for it.
Thinking back reminds me of one of the challenges I bump up against in my own work which is tracing a meme or tracing a trend back to find out where it started or how it has evolved. Sounds like what you're doing is trying to keep track as things develop. But, if you have to go back and trace where something started, especially if it is across platforms, how do you facilitate that?
A lot of reverse image searching. I really love the date range tools on Google search. I studied a lot of linguistics when I was in college, and I learned that a word won’t come into your point of view unless it’s been used for a certain amount of time before it reaches you. I think about this with memes too. A meme could be used in a closed Facebook group or an instagram DM or a Discord. Things are happening in those communities that just aren't archivable or searchable. You can get as close as you can unless you've got someone who was there when the tones were written. But, I think that especially over the past few years I had to do some letting go because sometimes you are not going to find the original. But, you can find the amplifiers, and sometimes the amplifiers are the best way to understand what community brought this forth.
Is there a typical track or a trajectory of where a trend starts and how it moves or evolves? I think I was giving a talk on memes maybe five or more years ago, and, at that time, it seemed that many memes started on 4chan, moved to Reddit, then Instagram and Twitter almost simultaneously, then maybe Facebook. Do you think there is still a common “track” for memes?
I don't think there is as much anymore. I think TikTok really has a handle on it, but I don't think TikTok is where things start necessarily. People see something somewhere on the internet and then they bring it to TikTok. Then because of the algorithm and the way that a lot of other platforms favor video, there's a little bit of a perfect storm of TikTok as amplifier. For example, all of the -cores that “started” on TikTok in the past couple of years like cottagecore? Those were on Tumblr about five years before. Tastemakers that make content that plays algorithms are definitely in that track. But tastemakers can really be anything or anyone. It really depends on the niche and how niches bump up against each other. The past couple of years have had the least amount of standard process. I was talking to a friend recently about the Tumblr-blog-to-book trajectory. You could make a Tumblr and it would be dumb and then you would get a book deal and that would be the process. But I don’t know if there is that process anymore. Maybe Instagram-page-to-book-deal? But if you are on Instagram then you have to also be on TikTok or somewhere else to drive people to look at that thing. TikTok is also so video-based so I don’t know if any TikTok people are getting book deals. Maybe there’s TikTok-to-TV? I’m thinking of Charli D'Amelio, that was TikTok to Hulu, but that was not a story that is as easily replicable. TikTok is more focused on moments versus people. People like Charli D'Amelio and Khaby Lame, who is now a spokesperson for a fashion brand, are exceptions. You don’t hear as many stories like those on TikTok. Other ones that stand out are Cranberry Juice Guy, Corn Kid. These types of specific moments from a random person that go viral. TikTok’s viral videos now are also getting smaller. This goes back to niche-fying. Something that can go viral in a niche doesn’t have the same impact because there’s no monoculture to drive it. The people who do succeed are becoming more niche. One of my personal favorites on TikTok is the Pasta Queen. Her videos are incredible loops where she is making pasta in an incredible kitchen and is always wearing beautiful clothes. She has such a wholesome approach to recipe-making. She’s always saying things like “this is beautiful just like you are.” And she just released a cookbook now, she just got signed to CAA. I think not everyone is going to want to watch Pasta Queen and that’s okay, but for people who love pasta and like this affirmation-y content, her style is amazing and the book is incredible. It includes stories from her Italian family and it’s all really accessible too. So, there are people out there who are going to be accessible and will be an influencer for a specific group of people, but it’s not the same as it was five years ago or more. Then, everyone has seen a Charli D’Amelio video.
PastaQueen
One thing that continues to interest me is when a trend is based off of a “revived” meme. Recently, for example, I was listening to an ICYMI Podcast episode where they talked about a fake Martin Scorsese film that was completely made up by fans on Tumblr based on a meme from years ago that someone just decided recently to respond to. Have you heard about this? It makes me wonder if memes ever “die”? How do we know if a meme is dead?
Some die. I think Gen Z tells us when they’re dead. Like, when was the last time you heard someone say “Damn, Daniel!”? I don’t know. Does Gen Z still watch Charlie the Unicorn? I don't think they do. Then you have something like the Rickroll, which makes Rick Astley part of internet culture forever. I don’t think we can predict which memes stay in power and which won’t. If a tastemaker finds it and thinks “Wow! This is fun! I want to bring this back,” then there’s potential for anything to come back. Since the pandemic, we’ve had a revised relationship with “cringe” as an idea. More people are going to like stuff and continue to do stuff just because it resonates with them, and that includes the memes that they use. Look at Minions memes, for example. They’re cringe but some people use them just for the irony of it. Or afffirmations on Instagram, that meme style is one that has been around and iterated on repeatedly. In my brain, it is the great grandchild of the de-motivational poster from the early internet. It’s all about what lenses people are bringing in. That goes back to the beauty of Tumblr. You can have a long tail because Tumblr exists in this no-timestamp and no-algorithm space. If someone wants to resurrect a photo from years ago, they can, and no one will know that it’s from 5-10 years ago. It’s all about the absurdity of it all. It’s all about finding absurdity and finding joy amidst the actual absurdity of all of our lives.
Tolerance demotivational poster
It feels like this moment is a moment of absurdity. Cringe is weirdly enjoyable. The aesthetic is exaggerated and crass. This isn’t new to the internet, but it feels like this is the time to eat this stuff up. So, in the midst of all this absurdity in our lives and on our internet(s?), what is a message that you would like to share with the world?
Wow! I’d say: Think about what lenses you bring to the table and how they affect what you’re seeing. Self awareness is a good one!
Sulafa Zidani is a writer, speaker, and educator at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where she is an Assistant Professor in Comparative Media Studies and Writing. She is a scholar of digital culture, and writes about global creative practices in online civic engagement. She is currently working on a book-length student on multilinguistic internet memes. She also serves as an editor on the board of Pop Junctions. You can learn more about her work at www.sulafazidani.com
Amanda Brennan is an internet librarian who has spent the past decade looking at the ways we talk about the things we love online. After graduating with her MLIS from Rutgers University, she began her career at Know Your Meme, then spent seven years at Tumblr. There, she spearheaded The Fandometrics, a ranking system of entertainment fandoms, which Paste Magazine asserted should be “given a permanent place in pop culture’s critical metrics tool belt.” In 2021, Amanda stepped into the role of Senior Director, Trends Social at XX Artists, an award-winning agency built on diversity and inclusion. She has spoken about internet history at conferences across the US, on topics ranging from Slender Man to cat videos, and has appeared in multiple documentaries as an authority on internet culture. She can be found in liminal spaces between New York City and New Jersey.
