EMMYS WATCH 2024 – Frederik Cryns Interviewed by Henry Jenkins on ‘Shogun’

This post is part of a series of critical responses to the series nominated for Outstanding Drama Series and Outstanding Comedy Series at the 76th Emmy Awards.

HJ: Can you tell our readers how you're connected to Shogun and how you came by this opportunity? 

FC: My connection to Shogun is deeply rooted in my academic background and research interests. As a professor of Japanese history at the International Research Center for Japanese Studies in Kyoto, I've been immersed in the late Sengoku period for decades. This era, which serves as the backdrop for Shogun, has been my primary focus for the past 35 years.

The opportunity to work on Shogun came about quite organically. For the last decade or so, my research has centered on Tokugawa Ieyasu, William Adams, and Hosokawa Gracia – coincidentally, the three main characters of the show. My approach has always been to delve into original documents, letters, and diaries from the period, trying to understand the lived experiences of the samurai class. I believe it was this perspective that caught the producers' attention. They reached out to me during the early stages of script development, inviting me to oversee the historical aspects of the show. This gave me the unique opportunity to contribute from the ground up. I started by reviewing scripts for historical accuracy, but my role quickly expanded. A significant part of my contribution was helping the writers understand how members of the samurai class would authentically react in various situations, based on my research into their personal writings.

As the project evolved, especially with the decision to film in Canada due to the pandemic, my involvement grew exponentially. I found myself collaborating with nearly every department – from set design and costuming to visual effects and props. We worked tirelessly to recreate not just the physical world of Sengoku-era Japan, but also its language, customs, and social dynamics. It was a bit like running an intensive course in medieval Japanese culture for the entire production team. And I have to say, they were exceptional students. Watching them absorb and apply this knowledge, transforming modern perceptions of samurai culture into something far more authentic, was incredibly rewarding. 

In essence, I had a hand in virtually all historical aspects of the show. It was an enormous undertaking, but also a labor of love. I was fortunate to have the support of my wife, Keiko, who lent her expertise in Japanese history and linguistics, which proved invaluable throughout the process. This project allowed me to bring years of academic research to life in a way I never imagined possible. It's been a unique and rewarding experience to see the world I've studied for so long recreated with such care and attention to detail.

HJ: Set the historical stage for this story. What is it important for viewers to know about this period in Japanese history and about Blackthorne as a historical figure? 

FC: To answer your question about setting the historical stage for Shogun, it's crucial to understand that the story unfolds during a pivotal moment in Japanese history - the late Sengoku period, around 1600. This era was characterized by intense political upheaval among the warrior class. Japan had recently emerged from decades of civil war, thanks to three great unifiers: Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu. At the time of our story, Hideyoshi had passed away, leaving behind a young heir and a council of regents. Ieyasu, the most powerful among these regents, was poised to seize control as the last unifier, but he faced opposition from other warlords and factions loyal to the Toyotomi clan. This political powder keg was about to explode into the Battle of Sekigahara, a defining moment that would shape Japan's future. Adding to this volatile mix was the arrival of European powers - Portuguese merchants and Jesuit missionaries had been in Japan since the 1540s, bringing with them new technologies, religious ideas, and political complications. In this period, globalization had already reached Japan. 

The arrival of a Dutch ship just six months before the Battle of Sekigahara effectively brought the religious wars of Europe to Japanese shores. The character of John Blackthorne is based on the real historical figure William Adams, who arrived on that Dutch ship. Adams' story is fascinating: initially facing execution as a pirate at the urging of the Portuguese, he not only survived but thrived in Japan. He eventually became a trusted advisor to Ieyasu and exerted considerable influence over Ieyasu's foreign policy. Here was an Englishman, thousands of miles from home, helping to shape the diplomatic direction of a nation on the brink of massive change.

What's fascinating about this period is how it blends domestic power struggles with international influences. You have the Tokugawa clan attempting to consolidate power, Toyotomi loyalists fighting to maintain their influence, and European factions pursuing their own agendas of profit and religious conversion. Clavell's Shogun takes these historical elements and weaves them into a compelling narrative, occasionally taking creative liberties to heighten the drama. For instance, the character of Ishido is given more prominence than his historical counterpart, which serves to intensify the political intrigue. The result is a complex web of personal ambitions, cultural clashes, and political machinations that keeps viewers on the edge of their seats.  

HJ: The series has much to teach western viewers about the political and military structures of Japan during this period. How is this material introduced? Is there a danger of overwhelming the viewer?

FC: The series presents a nuanced portrayal of Japan's political and military structures during the early 17th century, introducing this material through a carefully balanced approach. I think that the presence of European characters, particularly Blackthorne, serves as an effective entry point for Western viewers. Through his experiences, the audience is gradually exposed to the complexities of Japanese society, politics, and military organization.

One of the show's strengths is its depiction of a multicultural Japan, which may surprise viewers accustomed to thinking of feudal Japan as isolated. This period, just before the country's self-imposed seclusion, saw significant interaction with Europeans. While this might initially challenge viewers' preconceptions, it ultimately provides a richer, more accurate historical context.

The series doesn't shy away from showcasing the cultural aspects of samurai life, moving beyond the common warrior stereotype. This multifaceted portrayal, while potentially overwhelming at first, offers a more comprehensive understanding of the period. The abundance of cultural details may not be fully grasped by all viewers, but it contributes to a more authentic atmosphere and can inspire curiosity about Japanese history and culture.

As for the political structures, it's important to note that Clavell's story, which forms the basis of our show, has significantly simplified the historical reality. In actual history, these structures were much more complex. For instance, there was a Council of Five Elders and another Council of Five Commissioners, which Clavell condensed into a single council. Additionally, a fierce rivalry between two factions within the ranks of the Toyotomi loyalists, which was a crucial element leading up to the Battle of Sekigahara, was omitted in Clavell's narrative. While these simplifications may not capture all the historical intricacies, they do make it easier for viewers without extensive knowledge of Japanese history to follow the plot.  

There's always a risk of overwhelming the audience with too much information, but I believe we've struck a good balance. We're not just telling a story; we're inviting viewers into a different world. If they come away from the series with a broader, more nuanced understanding of this fascinating period in Japanese history, even if they feel a bit out of their depth at times, I'll feel we've done our job well. My hope is that Shogun will not only entertain but also spark curiosity and challenge preconceptions about samurai culture and feudal Japan.

HJ: As a consultant, your job is to advise and someone else makes the final decisions. So, can you identify something you felt strongly about that you convinced the show runner to include and a battle you felt strongly about that you lost.  

FC: As a consultant for Shogun, I was incredibly fortunate to work with a team that was genuinely committed to historical accuracy. To my initial great surprise, about 90% of my suggestions were accepted. This high rate of acceptance was due to Justin, Hiroyuki, and the other producers being genuinely committed to making the story as historically accurate as possible. Of course, the core story itself is fiction, so there was flexibility in the script. However, I got the impression that the producers were keen on not deviating too much from the historical characters. Their understanding of "accuracy" was particularly insightful. The key question was always: "Is it possible for this situation to occur at the time?" This approach led to numerous adjustments. For instance, one of our first corrections was to change the names of some characters, as several of the original names in the novel weren't historically accurate for Japanese names of that period. Other examples of changes we made include depicting women fighting with naginata rather than swords, accurately portraying methods of suicide, and correcting the attire of the priests. In the novel, the priests wore orange robes, but in our period, they would have been obliged to wear traditional Jesuit cloaks. These are just a few examples from a much larger body of work. Over the three years I worked on the show, I compiled all my comments into a single file, which ended up being over 2,100 pages long. The fact that most of these suggestions were accepted means you can expect a very accurate depiction of Sengoku-era Japan in the show.

One of the most satisfying changes I was able to convince the showrunner to make was the inclusion of medieval Japanese language and poetry. We created a small grammar guide for the writers to reference, ensuring the dialogue was period-accurate. Even more exciting was the incorporation of poetry, particularly linked poetry, into the story. Poetry was integral to samurai culture - you weren't considered a true samurai if you couldn't compose good poetry. I had the privilege of composing most of the poetry for the show, striving to create verses that would have been acceptable to a samurai of that era.

Another highly satisfying aspect of my work on the show was the attention given to historical detail in costume and set design. It was a pleasure to collaborate with Helen on recreating the castle and city of Osaka as accurately as possible, and with Carlos on ensuring the costumes and armor were true to the Sengoku period. This level of detail was crucial because most Japanese period dramas depict a much later era, about 250 years after our setting. For instance, we made sure that courtesans were portrayed accurately for the year 1600, looking quite different from the geishas of the 19th century that audiences might expect. One of my favorite unexpected inclusions was a scene featuring Yabushige and a story about an earthquake and a catfish. I had shared this story with Justin outside of our script discussions, and was delighted to see it make its way into the final version.

As for a battle I lost - and it was really the only significant one - it involved the way women sat in the show. Seiza, which is now seen as the traditional Japanese way of sitting, involves kneeling and resting the posterior on the ankles and heels. However, this style of sitting actually developed much later, in the 18th century, when kimonos became tighter and seiza became the most practical way to sit. In the Sengoku period, the kosode, which was a precursor to the kimono, was much looser, allowing for more relaxed sitting positions. Seiza was primarily used to prostrate oneself before a lord. From a historical perspective, it would have been very unusual for someone of Lady Ochiba's status - essentially the highest-ranking woman in the realm as the mother of the heir - to sit in this humble position. People of her rank would typically sit in a more relaxed manner, often with one knee up. However, in modern times, this perception has been inverted. Seiza is now considered the traditional way of sitting for cultured individuals. Because of this shift in cultural perception, the Japanese staff was adamantly against depicting high-ranking ladies sitting in any way other than seiza. This situation exemplifies how sometimes the modern image of national culture takes precedence over historical accuracy. While it was disappointing from a historical standpoint, I understand the decision to prioritize what contemporary audiences would recognize and expect. It's one of those instances where the perception of tradition outweighs the actual historical practice. 

Overall, my experience as a consultant on Shogun was incredibly rewarding. The level of detail and authenticity we were able to achieve, from language and poetry to costumes and set design, was remarkable. This attention to detail underscores the dedication of the entire team in bringing this fascinating period of Japanese history to life on screen.

HJ: The original Shogun has been criticized in recent years for being a white savior narrative. The recent version shifts perspective so that Blackthorne is understood from a Japanese perspective as a “barbarian.” What process did the production go through to foreground the Japanese characters? 

FC: It's important to view the original Shogun within its historical context. In the 1980s, Japan was still largely unfamiliar to Western audiences, so the show naturally emphasized the exotic aspects of Japanese culture. This approach inadvertently positioned the Western protagonist as the central figure, though I wouldn't necessarily characterize him as a 'white savior.' Blackthorne was more of a witness to, rather than a shaper of, events – much like in the current adaptation. The key difference between the 1980 and 2024 versions lies in the narrative perspective. The original series primarily viewed events through Blackthorne's eyes, while the new adaptation offers multiple viewpoints, more closely aligning with James Clavell's novel.

As for Blackthorne being perceived as a 'barbarian' from the Japanese perspective, this was actually a contribution I made to the show. I pointed out to the production team that while some Europeans, particularly Jesuits, admired Japanese culture, the Japanese often viewed Europeans as barbarians. The Portuguese in particular were called 'Nanbanjin' which literally means the southern barbarians, southern because their ships came from the south.

Regarding the foregrounding of Japanese characters, this was a decision made early in the production process, even before I joined as a consultant. It reflects our contemporary global mindset and allowed for meaningful involvement of the Japanese cast and crew. This approach created a synergy between the two cultures, enhancing the authenticity and depth of the series. In my view, this cultural fusion and the emphasis on multiple perspectives, particularly those of the Japanese characters, is the strongest aspect of the new Shogun. It offers a more nuanced and balanced portrayal of this complex historical interaction between East and West.

HJ: The nature of women’s power in this patriarchal society is one of Shogun’s most interesting themes. What sources gave you the most useful insights into these dynamics, given that women’s history has not always been captured fully in historical accounts?

FC: The focus on women's power was a key aspect of Shogun from the outset, and it's a theme I was particularly passionate about developing further. My research into the role of women during the Sengoku period revealed a reality that often contradicts popular perceptions of Japanese history. One of the most valuable sources for understanding these dynamics are the rare surviving letters written to and from women of the era. While historical documents specifically about women's activities are scarce, these letters provide crucial insights into their influence and power. 

One of the most fascinating aspects of the Sengoku period is how the constant state of warfare actually created opportunities for women to wield significant political power. When clan leaders fell in battle, it was often their wives who stepped in to rule until their sons came of age. These women essentially held all the political power that their husbands once did. A prime example of this is Yodo-no-kata, who served as the historical inspiration for Ochiba in our series. As the mother of the heir, she possessed tremendous influence and authority. Another key figure was Acha-no-tsubone, the real-life counterpart to Kiri. She not only managed Ieyasu's household affairs but also played a crucial role in conducting peace negotiations during the Siege of Osaka in 1614. Hosokawa Gracia, who inspired the character of Mariko, offers another interesting case. While she's often portrayed in modern times as an abused woman, my research revealed that she wielded considerable influence within the Hosokawa clan. For instance, she was instrumental in hiring former members of her father's Akechi clan, despite their notorious history of betraying Nobunaga. Their stories challenge the notion that women were always in the background. The later Edo period, with its prolonged peace, saw a rigidification of social structures that pushed women into more subservient roles – an image that has often been mistakenly applied to earlier periods.

Given these historical realities, the showrunner's decision to feature women in more prominent roles was incredibly valuable. It allowed me to present a more nuanced and accurate portrayal of women's power during this period. This approach not only enhanced the historical authenticity of the series but also helped to challenge common misconceptions about women's roles in feudal Japan. 

It's crucial to emphasize that while women could exercise political influence during the Sengoku period, the battlefield itself remained exclusively the domain of men. Women of the samurai class were trained in the use of weapons, particularly the naginata, and some did engage in combat when circumstances demanded it. However, they were not part of the regular fighting forces. I worked closely with the producers to ensure that our fighting scenes remained grounded in realism. This commitment to authenticity is perhaps best exemplified in Mariko's notable combat scene in Osaka Castle. I'm particularly proud of this sequence, as I suggested the concept of a 'wall of spears' to create a realistic and historically plausible scenario for a woman of her status to engage in combat. This approach allowed us to showcase female strength and capability within the bounds of historical accuracy, without resorting to anachronistic or unrealistic portrayals of 'women warriors'.

HJ: The new series has been produced in the context of what I call the global shuffle – the ways that many countries have greater access to each other’s media content than ever before. How did this transnational market inform the choices made in the production of the series?

FC: The global shuffle, as you aptly call it, has indeed influenced the production of the new Shogun series, though perhaps in more organic ways than one might expect. Today, there's a wealth of information about Japan and samurai culture available in the West compared to 1980 when the original series aired. This increased awareness has naturally shaped the context in which the show was created. However, it also meant we were inadvertently dealing with certain stereotypes and misconceptions that have arisen from this abundance of information.

Interestingly, the approach to navigating this transnational landscape wasn't a deliberate strategy, but rather emerged naturally from the diverse perspectives within our team. We found ourselves organically blending three distinct viewpoints: My own research, spanning over 35 years, has focused on primary sources - letters, diaries, and documents from the period. This naturally gave us a perspective on samurai society that often differs from modern perceptions. Then there's the viewpoint of our Japanese team members, particularly Hiroyuki, who brought insights shaped by Japanese period dramas. These have influenced the modern image of samurai within Japan itself. Lastly, we had the perspective of our Western team, led by Justin, who came with a strong desire for objectivity and historical accuracy, while also being aware of how the period is perceived by international audiences. The merging of these viewpoints wasn't a calculated decision, but it naturally ensured that the content was historically accurate and original while still being accessible to our transnational audience. In the end this organic approach addressed the concerns and perceptions of various groups: Japanese viewers, international audiences, and even historians.

I was initially a bit anxious about how Western viewers would react to some of the lesser-known historical details we included. To my pleasant surprise, these elements have been generally well-received, probably because they're perceived as fresh and intriguing additions to the narrative. In retrospect, I believe this natural convergence of perspectives allowed us to create a multi-layered narrative that speaks to different audiences simultaneously, bridging cultural understandings while still pushing beyond established stereotypes. It wasn't a conscious strategy to tackle the transnational market, but rather an organic outcome of our diverse team's collaborative process.

HJ: Even though John Ford’s The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance was a revisionist western, it famously ends with the journalist deciding to print the legend. It occurs to me that you are in a similar situation in that the age of the samurai is a historical period but also an important genre in Japanese popular culture. How would you assess the balance Shogunachieves between printing the facts and printing the legend?

FC: That's an intriguing comparison to The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. In the case of Shogun, we're dealing with a similar tension between historical fact and popular legend, but with an added layer of complexity. The challenge we faced in creating Shogun stems from the scarcity of readily accessible primary sources from the Sengoku period. Most of what exists are letters, diaries, and official documents written in medieval Japanese, which are often indecipherable to modern Japanese readers. This lack of direct historical material led to an interesting phenomenon in Japanese popular culture. When creators of period dramas sought to recreate the samurai world, they often turned to more accessible texts from the 19th century Edo period. This era saw a flourishing of book printing, providing a wealth of information. However, these sources viewed the Sengoku period through a nostalgic lens, idealizing it and projecting contemporary Confucian ideas onto it. This created a somewhat distorted image of the Sengoku samurai in popular culture. While the Edo period samurai were more like bureaucrats with rigid, institutionalized behaviors, the Sengoku samurai were likely more individualistic and unpredictable - more akin to characters you'd see in Hollywood movies. 

In Shogun, we've tried to strike a balance. We've aimed to peel back some of the layers of idealization and present a more historically accurate portrayal of the Sengoku period. Characters like Yabushige, portrayed by Tadanobu Asano, reflect this attempt to capture the more colorful, unpredictable nature of Sengoku warlords. At the same time, we can't entirely escape the influence of the Japanese period drama tradition. It's deeply ingrained in how both creators and audiences understand this historical period. So while Shogun could be seen as revolutionary in some aspects, it still acknowledges and respects this legacy.

Ultimately, we must remember that Shogun is a work of fiction. We've done our best to reconstruct the samurai world of the time as accurately as possible, but the story itself is invented. In this sense, we're neither wholly 'printing the facts' nor wholly 'printing the legend.' Instead, we're trying to create a new narrative that respects historical accuracy where possible, while also engaging with the rich tradition of samurai stories in popular culture. So, to answer your question directly, I believe Shogun achieves its balance by being transparent about its nature as historical fiction, while still striving to bring fresh, more historically grounded perspectives to a genre that has long been shaped by later interpretations and idealizations.

Biography

Frederik Cryns is a professor of Japanese history at the International Research Center for Japanese Studies in Kyoto, Japan. His scholarly work recently extended to the entertainment industry, where he served as the historical consultant for the 2024 television adaptation of "Shōgun". He is also the author of In the Service of the Shogun: The Real Story of William Adams (Reaktion Books, 2024) which explores the life of the English navigator who became the model for John Blackthorne in the series.